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Jager requested this


About Evasion and Physical Resist mechanics Edit

The Evasion bonus is explained here as "Added to the base percentage". What is the base percentage? Is it the "Physical Evasion" stat of each weapon? What about dual wielding units? and shield wielding units? And how is this bonus "added"? Is the whole bonus percentage added to the base percentage, or is the base percentage increased by this percentage (base percentage + bonus percentage or base percentage x (1 + bonus percentage))?

The Physical Resist bonus is explained as "Increases calculated Defense (STR+DEF)". So I guess it becomes more valuable as the unit's Strength and Weapons' Defense stat go up. Is there any reasonable estimation of Damage reduction based on the calculated Defense? is it capped? (I suppose calculated Defense is capped at 255 like pretty much everything else in the game, so no need for the Resist bonus at a certain point, i.e. a Meteor Virtutis +3 has 85 Defense, so with 170 STR, Milton would reach a 255 Calculated Defense). I also suppose it is applied after the 50% damage reduction from the "Defend" command. I personally thought that the calculated Defense is deduced from the raw damage of an enemy attack (An attak dealing 1K of Physical damage, reduced by an amount equal to the calculated Defense, let's say 200, would deal 800 damage), which is why some monsters will deal 0 damage to a stat-grinded unit with a good weapon (percentage damage reduction cannot reduce damage to 0, unless the final result is rounded down, and the damage is very low), while some powerful monsters seem do deal huge amounts of damage regardless of Defense. I don't know if it has already been thoroughly checked, but I'm willing to do some testing to gather some meaningful data.

Anyway, I like the fact that the game differentiates between defense against Physical and mystical attacks (Evasion) / damage (Resists). It makes setting up good defensive unions more challenging, and gives more sense to the Equipment Focus System.

One thing is sure, It is better to go for a balance between Evasion and Resists, because a unit with low Damage reduction and very high Evasion will most likely suffer huge damage if a Dodge is not triggered (or if the attack cannot be dodged)! --Aymen623 (talk) 10:48, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think anyone's quite figured it out. I would try if I could figure out where to start looking while using CE. From I gather, the base percentage is from the equipment's EVA value. For Shield units, I would imagine that the calculation would be looped through both pieces of equipment. For DW units, possibly the same way, then a penalty added due to the stance. Based on my observations, I think it's a multiplicative effect rather than a straight addition to the base EVA value. It's not like a Shield of the Vanquisher unit is even close to blocking everything thrown their way.
STR + DEF still matters even with STR255. The defined cap is higher than 255 to account for possibly hitting that STR255 hard cap. There's a very good reason why solo Rush builds heavily favour the Shielding Hawkwind. In general, it's easier to tank every hit rather than attempt to build a dodge tank. Shield tanks are still the best though, if somewhat lacking in offense. Zephyr (talk) 02:45, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
I've just gathered some interesting data about Evasion. First, I made the following hypothesis: the total chance to trigger a dodge or a block is the chance that each equipment piece (Two weapons or a weapon and a shield) triggers a dodge / block on its own or both at the same time, not taking into account the unit's Speed. Put simply, this is how it looks like:
Let's say E1 is the chance for Equipment piece n°1 (weapon) to trigger a dodge/block, and E2 for Equipment piece n°2 (weapon / shield):
  • The chance for Equipment piece 1 to trigger a dodge/block on its own is
    $ E1*(1-E2) $ (Equipment piece 1 triggers a dodge/block and Equimpment piece 2 doesn't)
  • Obviously, it's calculated the same way for the other Equipment piece
    $ E2*(1-E1) $
  • The chance for Equipment piece 1 and 2 to trigger a dodge / block at the same time is
    $ E1*E2 $
  • Add the three chances above, and the total chance to trigger a dodge/block is:
    $ E1+E2-(E1*E2) $
  • E1 (and E2) are calculated as follows:
    $ E1 = BaseEvasionStatForEquipmentPiece1 * (1+ EvasionBonuses) $
where bonuses are the Evasion bonuses provided by Necklaces, Weapons and Shields, Weapon and Shield Strengthening, Classes, Formations, as well as temporary bonuses of Shield Potion (+15%) and Band of Champions (+15%), and Evasion bonuses / penalties caused by army Morale.
Then I set off to put this theory to the test. I equipped rush with a Shielding Hawkwind (18% Evasion) and a Shield of the Vanquisher (40% Evasion, +4 Evasion, i.e. +12%), which means the above formula applied here would give us:
  • $ E1 = 0.18*(1+0.12) = 0.20 $
  • $ E2 = 0.40*(1+0.12) = 0.45 $
  • $ TotalChance = 0.20+0.45-(0.20*0.45) = 0.56 $
Rush would have 56% total Evasion, which the in-game tests came close to confirming: out of 33 Physical hits, Rush dodged / blocked 18, and I made sure to keep the army morale bar to the right-most (Ultra-High morale means an additional +8% bonus to Evasion). To push the tests further, I equipped Rush with two Hinnah's Earrings (2X +15% Evasion), switched his class to Legendary Cavalier (+5 Evasion, i.e. +15%), the actual class, not just the displayed class, Switched the Formation to Hawk-Eye III (+3 Evasion, i.e. +10%), pushing the Evasion bonus from 12% to +67%, and the calculated total Evasion to 76% (on avergae 3 dodges / blocks in 4 hits). The in-game tests resulted in roughly 25 dodges / blocks in 34 hits (approximately 73%).
As I said in the beginning, I didn't take speed into account, nor do I have any idea about the enemy units' "accuracy", which probably makes these test results a mere coincidence! Note that by analysing this formula in depth, i discovered that in order to reach 100% total chance to dodge / block, I'd have to find an additionnal 83% bonus to Evasion (150% total bonus to Evasion!), which even if we push the Equipment to +9 (+30% bonus) would be impossible to achieve.
Anyway, I will continue gathering data about this matter, maybe I will start observing the effect of Speed. For what it's worth, these are the details of my tests: BR12; just before entering Undelwalt; The Ancient Ruins; 3 Charybdis unions; testing union consists of Rush, Torgal, Roberto, and Emmy; another union for raising morale and healing; Rush has 23 Speed; NG+.
I know the fact that there still is some mystery about game mechanics makes TLR even more interesting, but I guess the game is also old enough for us to figure some stuff out. --Aymen623 (talk) 10:52, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
Since a lot of the calculations in the game are multiplicative, it would be odd if evasion wasn't treated the same way.
According to the loading screen tips, SPD should affect evasion... But the effect was negligible on the X360 due to the stat caps. It might have a much larger effect than anticipated though. I was poking at STR+DEF last night for a while, and the 3 test subjects were blocking a lot more than I expected. Rush (Nightbloom Mist+9) and Irina (Nightbloom Virtutis+9) block/dodge rate was higher than 26%, as was Emmy (Malystrix Virtutis+9) higher than 20%. They were in Melee Stance, morale frozen at the neutral point against a dragon forced to use normal attacks. Equipment Burden might also have an effect; says that it affects action order. Zephyr (talk) 16:19, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
Indeed. I just finished observing the effects of Speed on Evasion, and it did affect dodge/block rates. I was too bummed out to collect any figures, but if I had to throw a number, I would say that taking Speed from 23 to 255 added 5 dodges / blocks per 30 something hits. Anyway, I should probably go back to considering the intangibles of the game. I hear Guardian Gabriel is the real deal when it comes to absorbing Damage, too bad he automatically switches to assassin after a time. I'll probably put him as a leader to flank the enemies. Possibly do the same thing with David (although David can hardly take a blow, thanks to those shields he uses...). Too bad non-unique leaders have very few class choices (having very few skills), but Guardian Semry whould have been badass. I thought there were more shield-wielding unique leaders, and please, Adventurer Jorgen and Kate are nowhere near defensive aces! So, as a recap, should I go for Cavaliers or Guardians? --Aymen623 (talk) 19:35, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
You can keep Gabriel as a Guardian as long as Items isn't a (co-)significant category or meeting the Assassin WS/WT requirements. This would imply either stunting his OH/Sword growth or giving up his rather useful Item Skills set. Choice is yours. David shouldn't be anywhere near the front lines in the first place considering his skill set. It's better when he's on the flank or rear as it doesn't count as direct combat, and given a hybrid or mystic union due to Ex Machina and other long-range possibilities. He's not meant to tank. For generic leaders, Anios is a nice choice. There are a few others as well. Most of the L-sized Shield users are generic, likely to poke at the player to consider using them. There are a few gems hiding in that sea of faceless units. Being a generic leader isn't an excuse to dismiss their potential usefulness.
Guardian in general is the better class as dodge tanks are relatively unreliable, and they're good for units that will get hit. If style changing is an issue, then Cavaliers would get that job done. And Cavaliers help with the EVA/M.EVA rates found on equipment. Zephyr (talk) 20:31, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
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